| Ochana | Date: Wednesday, 2013-03-06, 7:56 AM | Message # 1 |
|
Sergeant
Group: Administrators
Messages: 13
Status: Offline
| Perfect Nuke
I will say something that most of the people reading guides hate - in Grepolis a lot of things are relative, situational and depends on particular circumstances or players goals. This involves nukes as well. Therefore a perfect nuke is perfect if it helps you to achieve your goals. You might have 3 different goals:
Short term - the most effective nuke (hit your enemy as hard as possible, without looking at costs or long term results). There is always one type of attack (blunt, sharp or range) which will deal the most damage to the enemy defenses (will be the most effective). If you put all your available population into it and hit your enemy's vulnerable point, you will blast him away. Vulnerable point? Yes, this might be a Light Ships fleet without any Biremes to defend them, or a land units nuke or a badly made defense, which ignores one type of attack.
Medium term - the most efficient nuke in terms of time needed to rebuild lost units (hit your enemy as hard as possible but losing units that can be quickly replaced). These types of nukes might be needed when you fight a strong player and you don't want to let him to recover. You will not defeat him in the first battle but shortly after.
Long term - the most efficient nuke in terms of resources (hit your enemy as hard as possible but with minimal costs). These types of nukes you should use during long conflicts which are more about endurance than a quick knock out. Often the most effective type of attack is the most efficient one but not always (more about it later).
For a perfect nuke you might need a spy report and your enemy to not move! If the defending units composition change, your nuke might hit a solid wall. My point is that, not everything depends on what you do, but also on how your enemy reacts, if he reacts... but first things first, we need a nuke.
[/url]
Effectiveness and Efficiency of your nukes
Effectiveness
As you should already know, the effectiveness of a nuke depends on the defense composition that is being hit (if you don't know it yet, then I suggest reading my guide about [url=http://grepolis-pro.blogspot.co.uk/2010....tacking). People build different numbers of Swordsmen, Archers and Hoplites, and its impossible to say which nuke will always be the most effective one - it has to be calculated for each individual defense. I will show you how to do it in a moment but first look at the table, which might help you to visualize effectiveness of different nukes.
A/FS A/FS/SD A/FS/AD Harpy 19 1.06 1.50 Horseman 18.3 1.02 1.45
Manticore 21 0.84 1.40 Hoplite 16 0.64 1.07
Slinger 23 0.77 1.41
A/FS - Attack per Farm Space. You can see here which units provide the most attack per FS - these are Slingers but as mentioned before, their effectiveness depends on who they fight against.
A/FS/SD - Attack per Farm Space divided by the Strongest Defense. It is the worst scenario attack. For example a Slinger has A/FS equal 23 but his strongest counter unit is a Swordsman with 30 range defense (so its 23/30=0.77). Of course the highest number indicates the most effective unit.
Here you can see why blunt attack units are so strong. There are no regular defensive units that much their attack power, however it comes with a high price (making them quite often less efficient than Slingers - more about it later).
A/FS/AD - Attack per Farm Space divided by the average defense. The Average Defense is a sum of 1 Swordsman, 1 Archer and 1 Hoplite defense strengths of the same type divided farther by 3. For example AD against range units will be Swordsman range def + Archer range def + Hoplite range def, so (30+12+7)/3. Of course the highest number indicates the most effective unit.
It is just an example, because I don't think everyone prepares a defense made of the same amount of Swordsmen, Archers and Hoplites. I put it there just to give you an idea how looks the effectiveness of different types of nuke against an "average" defense. "A/FS" and "A/FS/SD" could give you a wrong impression. It doesn't happen often that you hit defense made of only Swordsmen with your Slingers nuke. On average Slingers are as strong as Horsemen.
Calculating effectiveness
Its easy to say which units will be the most effective against any particular defense - you simply divide total attack by the total corresponding type of defense. Lets say you have 3 nukes: 1 blunt (500 Horsemen), 1 sharp (1500 Hoplites) and 1 range (1500 Slingers). All you have to do is to multiply a unit attack power by number of units, so: 500x55 (for Horsemen), 1500x16 (for Hoplites) and 1500x23 (for Slingers), which is: 27500 blunt, 24000 sharp and 34500 range attack. Now lets say our enemy has 500 Swordsmen, 400 Archers and 600 Hoplites. That makes: 20200 blunt, 21200 sharp and 24000 range defense.
The smallest one is his blunt defense but it doesn't mean it is his weakest point! Its not, because you have to take into account the power of your attacking units (some of them are stronger than others). Therefore we divide attack/defense:
Blunt 27500 / 20200 = 1.36
Sharp 24000 / 21200 = 1.13
Range 34500 / 24000 = 1.44
The winners are Slingers - they will be the most effective nuke against this particular defense. As you can see they are not clear winners because are only slightly more effective than Horsemen against that specific defense but still they are the most effective force to be used in this scenario.
Mind that I compared nukes made of the same amount of population (Farm Spaces). If you want to do a similar thing but without any specific numbers of attacking units, then you can simply divide attack power of a single offensive unit by the corresponding type of defense, so 18.3/20200 (55/3=18.3), 16/21200 or 23/24000. These will be very small numbers but the main rule is the same - the biggest one shows the most effective type of attack against that particular defense.
If we put these numbers into the Grepolis simulator (in Agora) we will see that we lose 346 Horsemen (69.2% casualties) or 971 Slingers (64.7% causalities) or 1293 Hoplites (86.2%). By using the most effective nuke we lose less units (the % of the lost units is the lowest). Not a big difference, because 1.36 is very close to 1.44. However this is only an example and things can look totally different and so the results.
That rule applies to all kind of attacks, even those against much bigger defenses which will kill all your attacking units. In that case, the more effective an attack is, the more defending units will die. You see, in Grepolis you have only 2 types of battles: those in which you lose all your units and those in which your enemy lose all of his. In Grepolis units fight till the total annihilation of the opposing side and there can be only 2 outcomes. The only exception are battles when there are some Transport Ships left for some reason etc. As a general rule if attack>defense then all defending units die, and if attack<defense then all attacking units will die - its that simple!
So basically the more effective attack is then: a) when Attack>Defense, less attacking units will be lost or b) when Attack<Defense, more defending units will be killed. In the situation "a" its always better to send a more efficient nuke. To be able to check which one will be more effcient you have calculate the net effect of your attacks, which will be explained below.
I prepared a calculator which counts for you all of these things. All you have to do is to type in numbers. You can find it in my Useful Tools tab (first from the top).
Efficiency
Regarding efficiency its bit more complicated but not that much. You just need to take into account costs of units lost or their time of production.
Time of production
Simply do in-game simulations using the Grepolis simulator and put number of units lost into myProduction Time Calculator to see which units you can rebuild faster. Of course you have to take into account your current Barracks level and "Conscription" (research) availability in the city producing those units.
Net Effect
 There are some situations in which you would think that its better to use Horsemen over Slingers. However if your goal is to gain advantage over your enemy in resources, then you should always compare yours and enemy's lost resources. Example: you attack 800 Swordsmen 600 Archers and 700 Hoplites. In this case 1500 Slingers "lose" the battle but 500 Horsemen "win" it. You will lose all your Slingers and kill 757 Swordsmen, 568 Archers and 663 Hoplites or you will kill all enemy units and lose 498 Horsemen. The 2nd situation looks better right? Its not if we count resources.
What you should do is to count resources used to produce 757 Sw, 568 Ar and 663 Hops and then deduct resources used in production of 1500 Slingers. So it is as simple as: resources used to produce units killed by Slingers minus resources used to produce Slingers. This is the "net effect". You compare resources lost by both sides.
Do the same with Horsemen and their victims. Now compare both net results. Ive got the numbers for you: defender lost 103 695 resources more than you when you used Slingers and 59 940 more than you when you used Horsemen. So even though you didn't kill all his units with Slingers, you still managed to get bigger advantage in resources than when using Horsemen.
Another example: sometimes by using the most effective nuke you will lose the least amount of units but these units can be so expensive that it would be cheaper to use less effective ones and lose more of them. Here comes an example.
Our enemy has this time 500 Swordsmen, 500 Archers and 500 Hoplites. Again we attack with one of the 3 nukes. I will skip all the previous steps and tell you straight away that the attack/defense ratio will be: 1.45 blunt, 0.36 sharp and 1.41 range, which suggests that the most effective nuke will be made of Horsemen. If we put these numbers into the in-game simulator we will see that we lose 321 Horsemen (64.2% casualties) or 995 Slingers (66.3% causalities).
It would be logical to use a Horsemen nuke then, however try to count resources used to produce those lost units. Its 231 120 total resources used to build 321 Horsemen and 194 025 to make Slingers. As you can see we save 37k resources by using bit less effective nuke.
The situation will change if we increase range and lower blunt defense. So with 635 Swordsmen, 500 Archers and 365 Hoplites, it will be just a tiny bit more efficient to use Horsemen. The attack/def would be: 1.49 for Horsemen and 1.25 for Slingers. The obvious conclusion is that Horsemen are more expensive than Slingers and therefore their advantage in attack power/defense (effectiveness) over Slingers must be much bigger in order to make their attack more efficient.
 A Slingers nuke with some catapults. Look at the resources lost by me and my enemy (in resources it was 1:9 for me) and it is still a weak nuke, with only 1k Slingers and no Divine Power! I was attacking blind (got lucky) and my travel time was 48+ hours...thank gods for people who never read anyone's guides ;)
This is why I said in the beginning that choosing your nuke depends on your goals. If your goal is to simply kill all enemy units then use the most effective nuke. If your goal is to save resources or drain your enemy then calculate the net effect and see which attack is cheaper.
The best way to know if you save resources is to put number of lost units into my Units Calculator and compare results. Unfortunately my Units Calculator is not capable of calculating the efficiency for you, as it would require me to know the exact battle formula used in Grepolis. Therefore you can always just check loses in the Grepolis simulator and put them into my calculator which will then show you difference in lost resources.
[/url]
Different types of nukes
Let me present you a list of possible nukes with their description, related city build and research. If you don't understand some details read my other guides about [url=http://grepolis-pro.blogspot.co.uk/2010....d units (their parameters, population cap, types of attack etc) and Mythical units (comparison of all units).
Size of a nukeHow big nuke you can make depends on how much population you can or want to "sacrifice" in your city. The less population you put into different buildings, the bigger your nuke will be. Also regarding land nukes, you have to consider how big your LS escort should be. For example it can be 50 LS (which should be enough vs 200 Biremes) or 75 LS (300 BMs). I will not tell you how big your escort should be, you know the rules and its up to you how much you want to risk (if you don't know what I'm talking about check this guide - breakthrough). The bottom line - don't be a fool like this one here:
Same goes with city templates. Here are my propositions but I am not saying they will always work for you - in Grepolis lot of things are situational. More about city specialisation here.
Lastly the more cities you have the more "hardcore" your nuke cities can be. Your first cities can be "hardcore" as well if you chose so but remember that you will not be ready for longer conflicts if you keep your temple, marketplace, production camps levels low. When you have more than ~10 cities it should be rather easy to start making the most powerful nukes out there (at least regular ones, because for mythical nukes you will need lot of time and Favour Points).
Production Camps
For each nuke I propose a different set up of production camps levels. There is always the most important material, secondary and the least important one. For example in a city making LS nukes, the most important will be Timber Camp (wood), secondary will be Silver Mine and the least important Quarry. The most important camp will be always at the maximum level. Then I calculate how much time (days) it needs to collect enough resources to rebuild a whole nuke. After that I'm able to calculate on which level must be other camps to produce necessary amount of resources in the same time. That allows me to reduce their size to the minimum level and save some Farm Spaces for a bigger nuke.
However its just a guide - template which you should tailor to your own situation. There are different types of islands and they have different materials availability ("+" and "-") but also their farming villages trade differently. Therefore you should take into account both factors when deciding about level of your secondary production camps.
For example best islands for Light Ships cities are those with "+" wood and "-" stone. However on some islands wood might not be on "+" but there will be plenty of villages selling wood for stone or silver. In that case you can build up your secondary production camps to a higher level to be able to trade those extra resources for wood. Production of wood in this example is the main factor that limits the speed of your nuke construction, so if you can gather more wood through trading, you should take advantage of that possibility. Unless you really don't need to rebuild your nuke quickly.
Difference between 2 production camps lvl 40, one on "+" and the second on "-" is only 1680 resources per day. Between "neutral" and "+" its only 840 resources of difference, which is less than what you can earn in 2 trade transactions.
[/url]
Nukes Comparison
Table below compares all nukes presented in this guide. Efficiency is calculated as Resources/Attack/FS (the lower the better). FS, represents Farm Spaces used to build a nuke - mythical flying nukes (Harpies and Manticores) don't need ships, so more population could be used to make them (they are the strongest in the game). There are slight differences in used FS for each regular nuke but I don't think they matter that much. By manipulating city templates that I proposed, you can try your own numbers.
[url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vOVuDNrzudg/T7v-eDlKDmI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jantiyTZI0U/s1600/nukes.png]
[/url]
Slingers Nuke
[url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TsR7O4tGZIY/TPPGlsjyIJI/AAAAAAAAADQ/XiOtoC-u7Io/s1600/sling.jpg] This is the most basic nuke in Grepolis and my favorite one. Remember though, only because they are the strongest regular units and the cheapest ones that doesn't mean they are always the most effective or efficient force to use - as explained above it depends on the enemy defense composition.
Best islands for Slingers factories are the ones with "+" stone and "-" silver.
Strength: 23 Attack/FS (highest in the Range attack category) - there is no stronger nuke in range attack than Slingers, including mythical creatures.
Full Nuke's Strength: 41.2k Range Attack
Efficiency: they are the cheapest offensive units in the game with 8.5 resources/attack.
Counter units: Swordsmen (30 Range Defense/FS), Cerberi (52.5 RD/FS) and Cyclops (32.8 RD/FS).
Nuke:Slingers 1790 Fast Transport Boats 112 Light Ships 50
City:This city will produce your units with maximum speed and have practical level of senate and production camps (which can be taken down to further increase the size of your nuke). Production Camps are organised in such a way that they will produce with equal speed (23 days) enough resources to rebuild your whole nuke and its escort (which won't be always necessary). Of course they don't take into account resources availability on an island ("+" and "-") so adjust them accordingly. Regarding temple, remember to have at least total temple level of 50-75 per god (if you don't understand this concept, visit my guide about City Specialisation or Total War - Resources).
Barracks 30 For fast production of your unitsFarm 40 No population costWarehouse 30 No population costAcademy 28 You need Battering Ram research for LS escortCave 10 No population costSenate 15 After building Thermal Baths you can take senate down - this level allows you to construct all regular buildingsHarbour 15 To rebuild LS escort and sometimes transport shipsTemple 0-10 Depends on how many cities worship the chosen godMarketplace 5 That allows you to trade with only 1 village at a timeCity wall 0 Try to not to build nukes in a city which is under threat of attacks. You will need lvl 6 for Temple. Build Temple to the level you like and then destroy walls for a bigger nuke.Thermal Baths 1 You must have them
I assume you will mainly need to rebuild Slingers and Light Ships.
Quarry 40You will need ~23 days to produce enough stone, wood and silver for 1790 Slingers and 50 LSTimber Camp 35Silver Mine 25
You might have some farming villages trading stone for wood or silver and in that case its worth to build up Silver Mine or Timber Camp bit higher. Naturally size of your production camps depends on how often you use your nuke (and need to rebuild it) or how much resources you can farm from other players or deliver from other cities.
To save even more population for your nuke you can take down Harbour a bit if your ships rebuild fast enough (as fast as land units).
Obligatory research:Breakthrough, Phalanx, Battering Ram, Trainer, Conscription, Shipwright, Light transport boat, Bunks,Plow, Ceramics
[/url]
Horsemen Nuke
[url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TW3SeVG6qMs/TPPGvb9rTyI/AAAAAAAAADU/nExih8hlSDQ/s1600/horse.jpg] Horsemen are the strongest in blunt attack among regular units, however Harpies will provide much stronger blunt nuke (they are stronger and don't need ships so you can build a bigger nuke).
Best islands for Horsemen factories are the ones with "+" silver and "-" stone.
Strength: 18.3 blunt attack/FS (stronger are only Harpies with 19 attack/FS ). Full Harpies nuke will be stronger than a Horsemen one for another reason - they can fly and don't need ships.
Full Nuke's Strength: 33k Blunt Attack
Efficiency: 13.1 resources/attack (Harpies are bit cheaper if we don't count Favour Points)
Counter units: Pegasus (45 Blunt Def/FS), Medusa (34.7 BD/FS), Cerberus (27.5 BD/FS), Cyclops (23.6), Minotaur (22.5), Chariot (19), Hoplite (18)
Nuke:Horsemen 600 Fast Transport Boats 113 Light Ships 50
City:Its basically the same to the Slingers one with the exception of Production Camps.
Silver Mine 40 You will need ~30.5 days to produce enough wood, stone and silver for 600 Horsemen and 50 LS Timber Camp 34 Quarry 17
For more details regarding other city buildings and research check Slingers nuke part.
[/url]
Hoplites Nuke
[url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3iETrXe49sw/TPPIhBV5oXI/AAAAAAAAADY/RIMQZy2krTM/s1600/hopl.jpg] Hoplites are the strongest in sharp attack among regular units, however Manticores will provide much stronger sharp nuke (they are much stronger and don't need ships so you can build a bigger nuke) and will be cheaper as well (if we don't count Favour Points).
Best islands for Hoplites factories are the ones with "+" silver and "-" wood.
Strength: 16 sharp attack/FS (stronger are Manticore 21 A/FS and Medusa 24.2 A/FS )
Full Nuke's Strength: 29.5k Sharp Attack
Efficiency: 14.1 resources/attack (Manticores are cheaper with only 11.4 resources/attack)
Counter units: Centaur (37.5 Sharp Def/FS), Archer (25 SD/FS), Medusa (24.2 SD/FS)
Nuke:[c]Hoplites [/c][c]1840 [/c][c]Fast Transport Boats [/c]115 [c]Light Ships [/c]50
City:Its basically the same to the Slingers one with the exception of Production Camps.
Silver Mine 40you will need ~37.5 days to produce enough wood, stone and silver for 1840 Hoplites and 50 LS Quarry 22Timber Camp 11
For more details regarding other city buildings and research check Slingers nuke part.
[/url]
Light Ships Nuke
[url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JD0m-VBZ4LE/T7QMqAM1fLI/AAAAAAAAAj8/ZawFu9kwpmM/s1600/LS.jpg] There is no other alternative to the Light Ships nuke. Hydras cant be mass build and are to slow.
Best islands for Light Ships factory are the ones with "+" wood and "-" stone. You will need tons of wood, so instead of looking at "+" and "-" of different materials, better check how local farming villages trade them.
Nuke:Light Ships290City:Harbour 30 For the maximum production speed of your fleetFarm 40 No population costWarehouse 30 No population costAcademy 28 You need Battering Ram researchCave 10 No population costSenate 15 After building Thermal Baths you can take senate down - this level allows you to construct all regular buildingsBarracks 0-5 Get rid of them when destroying your farming units if you had them. You need lvl 5 to build Academy, so make that first before demolishing.Temple 15 Depends on how many cities worship the chosen godMarketplace 5 That allows you to trade with only 1 village at a timeCity wall 0 Try to not to build nukes in a city which is under threat of attacks. You will need lvl 6 for Temple. Build Temple to the level you like and then destroy walls for a bigger nuke.Thermal Baths 1 You must have them
Timber Camp 40 You will need ~45 days to produce enough wood, stone and silver for 290 Light Ships Silver Mine 27 Quarry 12
You might have some farming villages trading Wood for Stone or Silver and in that case its worth to build up Silver Mine or Quarry bit higher. Naturally size of your production camps depends on how often you use your nuke (and need to rebuild it) or how much resources you can farm from other players or deliver from other cities.
Obligatory research:Battering Ram, Shipwright, Mathematics, Plow, Ceramics. You can even invest in the City Guard.
[/url]
Manticore Nuke
[url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V3eRrGtzczs/TPFL-XIsRqI/AAAAAAAAACk/W38--OzYy54/s1600/manti.jpg] Manticores make the strongest nukes in the game. Even though their attack/FS is lower than Medusas, they don't need ships to be transported or escorted and so you can make many of them. Manticores are very offensive units - the ratio between offensive and defensive stats is 3.2 to 1. They can fly to the other islands, over the enemy's Biremes and hit land units avoiding sea battle.
Strength: 21 sharp attack/FS (Medusa 24.2 A/FS )
Full Nuke's Strength: 62.3k Sharp Attack
Efficiency: 11.4 resources/attack (which is rather cheap and cheaper than Hoplite)
Counter units: Centaur (37.5 Sharp Def/FS), Archer (25 SD/FS), Medusa (24.2 SD/FS)
Nuke:Manticores66-68
City:Barracks 5 You will not be able to build many Manticores per day.Farm 40 No population costWarehouse 30 No population costAcademy 22 For Plow (Phalanx dont affect mythicial units in regular worlds)Cave 10 No population costSenate 15 After building Thermal Baths you can take senate down - this level allows you to construct all regular buildingsTemple 15 You need that level to build ManticoresMarketplace 5 That allows you to trade with only 1 village at a timeHarbour 0 You don’t need it in this cityCity wall 0 Try to not to build nukes in a city which is under threat of attacks. You will need lvl 6 for Temple. Build Temple to the level you like and then destroy walls for a bigger nukeThermal Baths 1 You must have them
Timber Camp40You will need ~33.5 days to produce enough wood, stone and silver for 64 Manticores. However you will not be able to queue more than 1 at a time, since you need 405 FPs to make one unit.Silver Mine32Quarry29
You need 405 Favor Points to build 1 Manticore. If you cant build more than 1 a day then you could take down Production camps to very low levels if you dont care about resources production for other cities. With these levels you will have enough resources to build 1 Manticore a day and have enough FS for 66 Manticores.
Timber Camp 24 Silver Mine 19 Quarry 18
Obligatory research:Phalanx, Trainer, Conscription, Plow, Ceramics. You can even invest in the City Guard.
[/url]
Harpy Nuke
[url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-a2dtchvob6s/TPE_G7hz_lI/AAAAAAAAACA/klNugfF-GGs/s1600/harpy.jpg] Harpies make very strong nukes. Harpies are the most offensive "minded" units in Grepolis. That means the ratio between offensive and defensive stats is 4.5 to 1, which makes them absolutely useless in defense but perfect in attack. Their worst enemies are other mythical creatures (Pegasus, Medusa, Cerberus, even Cyclops). They can fly to the other islands, over the enemy's Biremes and hit land units avoiding sea battle. Harpies are also great farming units (can carry lot of loot).
Strength: 19 blunt attack/FS (Horseman 18.3 A/FS )
Full Nuke's Strength: 57k Blunt Attack
Efficiency: 12.6 resources/attack (less than Horseman)
Counter units: Pegasus (45 Blunt Def/FS), Medusa (34.7 BD/FS), Cerberus (27.5 BD/FS), Cyclops (23.6), Minotaur (22.5), Chariot (19), Hoplite (18)
Nuke:Harpies214
City:Barracks 5 Upgrade them IF the speed of production holds you back.Farm 40 No population costWarehouse 30 No population costAcademy 22 For Plow (Phalanx dont affect mythicial units in regular worlds)Cave 10 No population costSenate 15 After building Thermal Baths you can take senate down - this level allows you to construct all regular buildingsTemple 16 You need level 5 to build HarpiesMarketplace 5 That allows you to trade with only 1 village at a timeHarbour 0 You don’t need it in this cityCity wall 0 Try to not to build nukes in a city which is under threat of attacks. You will need lvl 6 for Temple. Build Temple to the level you like and then destroy walls for a bigger nukeThermal Baths 1 You must have them
Timber Camp 40 You will need ~39.5 days to produce enough wood, stone and silver for 208 Harpies.Silver Mine 35 Quarry 13
Obligatory research:Phalanx, Trainer, Conscription, Plow, Ceramics. You can even invest in the City Guard.
|
| |
| |
